that's no defense. so i think on the law, her decision was right. >> rick: but that's basically the sort -- the naive defense, is what his team is arguing here, that he was a naive whistle blower. now we're seeing this, of course, against the backdrop of the ed snowden saga that continues to play out. one person's heroic whistle blowerrer is another person's spy or someone who has been aiding the enemy. it's sort of in the eyes of the beholder. is that the way it works with the law, too, or is it more clear cut? >> well, i think whatever his subjective desires, okay, whatever his subjective purpose, what the law asks and what you got to ask 'cause we can't have a different standard and say, oh, you're naive, so you can do whatever you want. the law asks is, did you know when you did this what the consequences would be? he's not claiming that he was completely unaware. this is a trained intelligence officer. he's not saying oh, i didn't realize what these materials were. he knew exactly, as far as we can